0:02  
If I want a basic cut to length, like style, let's say yeah, what am I looking for? Yeah. So

0:07  
if you came to me and said, I don't care who I get, but I don't want someone that's fresh out of school, then you probably be looking at $50 for a wash, cut.

0:16  
Okay, I'll see if my partner here one haircut, what

0:19  
are they looking for?

0:20  
Um, depends on what you're it, honestly. So

0:27  
like, yeah, see,

0:29  
you're

0:37  
I don't, I don't want to be like rude right now. I'm very like feminine features, and I just don't

0:42  
know what I'm dealing with.

0:49  
Hi, I'm Christina. My preferred pronouns are she and her. And this is visiting queries. In this series, we explore small businesses doing good for the queer community. Toronto has a reputation as a progressive city to live in. But in reality, there's a lot of work to be done to be inclusive of queer folk. This episode, I'm joined by my co host app, who had the chance to investigate the importance of LGBTQ IP to S A inclusive salons and barbershops. We would like to say, if you're still unsure about some of the ideas talked about, and you need more info, just Google it. The best part about pre recorded audio is it can be paused. So do your part and be informed. There's no excuse. In case you're wondering what that long acronym stands for. It's lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, questioning, queer, intersex, pansexual, to spirit, androgynous and asexual.

1:50  
My name is m, I'm a gender non conforming female and my pronouns are she and her.

1:57  
Okay, so let's talk about that. That opening scene, we walked into a salon in suburbia, and asked the first Alice we could find just about the pricing module for the salon. And it was it was interesting, I asked how she would price me because I am a sis female, and I present as very feminine. And as soon as we asked about your haircut price, there was some hesitance, right? There was a little bit confusion and gawking almost

2:33  
fairly interesting. It seems like until I found the hairstylist that I currently go to, it was something that I had to deal with, quite often, someone kind of like analyzing you, I would imagine a hairstylist is going to analyze your head for potentially what looks good for your hair. But I find especially when I'm going into like clothing stores or salons, that kind of stuff. People are trying to figure out my gender. And that gender determines what kind of service I got, or what kind of attitude or conversations come up, it definitely eliminates eliminated my personhood in that moment, because for a second, it was like I was in a petri dish. And this person was a scientist trying to figure out exactly who I was, when Meanwhile, get out of my head lady, I just want a haircut. That being said, it's it's an interesting experience when you when you do walk in somewhere and you're not being heard for what you're saying you're being heard for what you look like. And I think it creates an atmosphere of inclusivity or an atmosphere of isolation. And unfortunately, we have a lot of queer people that are scared, discouraged, not excited about getting haircuts, I found actually quite funny. The one person that we interviewed who brought up my feminine features, which is like, exactly what I am like a female and even though I am gender non conforming, she was even hesitant to like oh even analyze me. And it's a fairly interesting concept because we don't think about that when we think about services, you know, the ideas, you have enough money or you don't, it's not necessarily like who you are determines what kind of service you get. So definitely, it's it's interesting living life under the microscope. I will say that not everybody is like this. And there's a lot of really great, open minded people out there that gender is not even at the forefront of their mind when they are talking to me. But there's definitely a large part of the population that I've encountered in the last 25 years where they are so hung up on my gender, that they can't think about anything else. Even though it feels like it's sometimes I know I'm not the only person who's gone through this. Tyler Lum is the owner of MPL cuts and he's had a similar experience.

4:50  
I am the founder of MPL cuts it's gender affirming gender free barbershop, we approach our pricing on our menu, we have barber cuts, or long hair

5:04  
cuts. Tyler sharp is at college and Bathurst. He can recall the details of walking into a salon in Brampton, after a signposted outside read $25 for men's cuts. So

5:15  
hair was really important to me. And having a clean haircut was was really important to my job as well. I went into a salon because it said that there was $25, men's haircuts, men's quotes. And I wanted to fade and so why not? At this time, I hadn't transitioned yet. I went up to the receptionist asked if I could see somebody who does the best fades and wanted a short haircut. So she put me with somebody who was amazing, they did exactly what I wanted them to do. And he or she was Queer as well. So he made me feel super comfortable in his chair, which, you know, obviously, that made me feel really good. And that feeling came to light here as well.

5:59  
Tyler's experiences up to that point had made him feel heard and accepted. That changed when he went up to pay.

6:06  
And when I went to go pay for that haircut, they charged me $70 because I was female presenting at the time. And I argued with them for a long time, until I finally said to them, you know, what, if you charge me $25 Now, I'm going to come back every two weeks, because I need a haircut every two weeks for my job. A price was negotiated between the men's haircut price, and Tyler's presented gender. But he continued to come back to the salon because of the quality of the haircut.

6:38  
And I did go back only because I felt comfortable in that person's chair. I may not have felt comfortable in the shop. But being in the presence of somebody else who understood me and the kind of haircut I was looking for, and that I wanted to look masculine. And I didn't want somebody to tell me, oh, you should get a feminine haircut, or you shouldn't go that short. So to me, that was important. So I did go back. That's what I'm trying to change is the gender roles inherit the gender roles and services in general, because females pay more than males. And that's what inspired me to create what I've created today.

7:18  
That's such an intense, heavy story. Um, can you tell me a bit more about your experience actually going to MPL?

7:27  
Definitely very different than other salons or barber shops that I've seen. I mean, obviously, it has all the fixings like salon chairs, mirrors, blow dryers, hairspray, all that jazz, cool scissors. I really liked some of the colors they had on the scissors. But what made the space different I think than a traditional salon or a barber shop is the fact that it wasn't this uniformed, super sanitized look like there was art on the walls. And you could have an opinion about it good or bad. You know what I mean?

8:08  
Sorry, I wasn't there. So I want a little more context. What? Tell me more about the art and you mentioned the colors on the scissors. So am I looking at like a rainbow clad salon or barbershop, sorry.

8:23  
So you're walking in. There's wooden floors, big mural on your right hand side that kind of hugs the bench where you sit and wait for your cut. Think of a massive Phoenix almost with its wings spread way out. And behind it. There's a outline of the CN Tower. Some skyscrapers and just the colors on it. Like a light blue neon yellow green. Just very vibrant. The people there. Some of them are gender non conforming, non binary trans queer. Everybody's really open and inviting everybody talks to you. Okay,

9:09  
I'm liking this. I like the way it feels, as you're telling me very warm and happy because of all the colors and it's clean, which I mean I'm sure all customers can appreciate. But what was the vibe like? What What were you feeling when you especially you mentioned you do present as non conforming or androgynous? How did you feel walking in?

9:32  
Like I didn't have to prove anything. And that's a really nice feeling. I definitely didn't have that judgmental gaze that although someone's not saying something with their lips, they're saying it with their eyes as they double or triple take me. So there's definitely none of that nonsense at this store. You walk in and you're a person. You're not $1 you're not a haircut. You're a person and I think that's very different from traditional business. Models because you know, businesses don't want you to hang out at their business if you're not going to spend money, but Tyler actively encourages that you know, you're in the area drop by come like know your community. And I, I think that's what that inviting nature is as well as this community driven safe spot. That doesn't matter if you're going out for a cup of coffee or you actually have a haircut appointment, you can stop by you can say hi to Tyler to the different stylists

10:28  
did, Tyler asks one of his clients, what makes what makes them comfortable?

10:32  
I'm we definitely talked to Tyler about what makes his clients kind of come back. And he said, especially initially when he was learning to cut hair, he will say it himself. He's I wasn't a great barber. He's told us but people came back to him, because he made them feel welcoming, because he asked them questions because he didn't give them judgment because he did the hairstyle that they wanted. He didn't impose what he wanted on them.

10:58  
Every scene of this talk here

11:06  
was actually

11:09  
like, take her in the back.

11:10  
Yeah.

11:12  
So we actually spoke to Mac a junior hairstylist at MPL cuts, he brought up a really great point about how marginalized groups people with disabilities, queer community PLC. Unless we're the ones paving the roads and making the rules, no one else is gonna do it. For us.

11:33  
It's the way society is like, no one else is gonna create those spaces for us. And no one else has obviously created any of the spaces for the most marginalized. Like I've wandered into so many salons where I walk out and I'm like, I don't know, I didn't really feel comfortable there the whole time.

11:47  
I got what I wanted. But I don't know if I'm

11:49  
gonna come back because I feel weird. So this place is, to me the exact opposite of that, like the it's bright, tall ceilings like beautiful colors. I just kind of want to be here and I don't want to leave.

12:18  
What Mac describes to have a safe space created by someone with an experience of not having one. That's what motivates Tyler, and his work at NPL cuts.

12:30  
I wanted to create something that was going to be comfortable for everybody, because I walked into places numerous times, and turned around and walked right out because of how uncomfortable it made me feel.

12:48  
With Mack Yeah.

12:51  
145 They'll be here very shortly. There's

12:57  
an organization called the dress code project was started by Kristin Franken, after a similar experience as Tyler, except the roles were reversed.

13:05  
Well, I mean, I myself am a non binary identifying person in that desert about three years ago in my hair salon. I have always been obviously very inclusive, being that identify within the queer community. But I was cutting a transgender woman hair. And when I was finished cutting her hair, she tweeted to me the very next day that it was the first time she'd had a haircut and felt like a woman. And it was just an incredibly impactful statement or tweet. And I just could not get it out of my head. And so I just decided that something needed to be done about this. And I, from there just decided that I was going to be the one to do something because I think initially I was like, someone needs to do something. And then I was like, But who? So I just decided to try to take a few steps. That's how it started.

13:59  
DCP is this online resource for the queer community to go find safe spaces that are queer friendly for salons and barbers. Talking to Kristen, she touched a lot on how she had clients coming in and they didn't really know where else to go. She acts as this resource for them to be able to find somewhere to go and be accepted for who they are and get the quality service that they deserve. She herself works as a hairstylist, so she sits day in and day out with all kinds of walks of life and getting their story. So MBL cuts is actually a part of this, this resource online they they've signed off on their registration, they are deemed a queer friendly space, which listening to the stories of you visiting Tyler and LPL cuts. I can only imagine what that actually feels like. But I mean what do you think what do you think about the having this organization that caters to the queer community. Really, I

15:04  
think we don't have as many resources or it's not as public as to where to go. If you're a queer person. I think everybody's familiar with Church Street. And everyone's familiar with pride. These are mainstream representations of LGBTQ asterik. Population and community and culture, you know, we don't have those, those resources off the top of our head unless you have a good strong queer community, you're not going to know those resources organizations like the DCP. Like MPL cuts, they bring people through their doors, or they bring people together. And then once people are together, we can start having conversations. And once we have conversations, and we can have change, but until we have changed, we have to rally together and have those conversations. First,

15:54  
I think to your point, about safe spaces, talking to Kristin, she did say that it might be expanding in terms of it's not just quote unquote, queer salons or queer barbers, she did mention that there are actually traditional salons who are starting to connect with the DCP to learn about pricing out hair in it just being hair and not being a man's head or a female's head of hair. I do believe that there will be a good expansion of a safe space for these communities that we have in Toronto, thanks to organizations like the DCP. Totally. And I mean, change is not going to come overnight. But it's the small steps that people like Kristin like Tyler, it's just these little little steps that are going to get us to astride, I spoke to Zahra Brown, a self assured woman whose competence spills out of her laugh and the way she speaks. But nothing makes her feel better than sitting in Tyler's chair for a cut.

17:01  
We all go through the same struggle in getting our hair cut. So to find a boba, it's really hard to get to Tyler. With time and energy, I can imagine head impact to a lot of different people because I'm just one person. So one of the things I like about going to the shop Thailand very accommodating. So for example, I'm hard on him, but I need to read lips in order to listen to when he talking to me. He's always turning his soften, making sure I'm facing him. And then so that when he talked, I am able to understand my chain, promote Bible don't care this talk behind a bath and appear liberating him is just free because you're entirely 100 to do because understanding the barber and not the Plus, you know.

18:09  
I was trying to like experiment. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

18:19  
Both Tyler and Kristen say one of their goals is to encourage traditional businesses to become more inclusive. You know, at a typical salon, they're very gendered. There's a female cut list and there's a male cut list. Some salons are already starting to change on that though.

18:37  
Samantha Bianchini is a hairstylist at Studio CPB, a traditional hair salon.

18:43  
So I've been a hairstylist for five years now, I apprenticed for about two and I've been working behind the chair for about three years. I started here almost a year ago today. And the shop is just me and my dad. So it's nice and cozy people like it. It's very intimate. So um, what I'm finding very difficult right now is structuring men and like female and male haircuts, just because of today's society. You know, it's very gender equality essentially. And it's it's getting a little bit more tricky with pricing. So right now I'm trying to figure out what to do in that kind of situation just because it is a little bit of a touchy situation right now

19:27  
studio CPB adjust the pricing of their haircuts at the beginning of each year. Samantha says that in January, they will huddle up and think about a better route to tackle haircut pricing, basing it on time,

19:39  
which is exactly to Christine's point.

19:41  
For the most part, every hairstylist that I have spoken with, they get it you know, I mean you have questions obviously which are good and welcomed, but they do understand it you know, and they want to be more inclusive and they didn't even realize they weren't being and it's a really interesting deck Dynamic, you know, to have such a creative world that really the queer community thrives in. And you still have this happen. I mean, it says so much, right?

20:10  
Tyler has been brainstorming national plans and hopes to head east to Montreal.

20:15  
I want to better every city. So not just this city. So I am going national. That's been my decision. There is some ideas of maybe opening a shop here and providing education. But what I can do in the meantime, is open up other shops and provide education in those shops to people I hire. Yeah. Yeah,

20:48  
yeah.

21:03  
Imagine if hair was described as just hair, and prices reflected time and technique. This would make every space feel safe and inclusive. And that's the most important part. Getting bangs our new type of fade can be scary enough. So there's no need to add Gender Analysis to the price tag. This has been business and queries, listen and next time for the story of a small business doing their part in making Toronto a little more inclusive.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai